Since I am absolutely puzzled by the recurring tendency of most American men's unwillingness to make the first move (read: be the first to ask the woman out for the first time) I'd like to raise the topic here.
Understand I am speaking of the American men that I meet, or hear of thru female friends, in comparison to the European men of my past. I have found it more prevalent here that men will not make the first move more often than not. Hence I often become "the one that got away" LOL! (And partly the reason that brings me to MM!)
OK, "Cowboys"! So what's the deal?! Honesty please: are you that afraid in real life to hear "no, thank you?" I mean I am not talking about picking up a woman at a bar (I don't hang out there but seen it on TV). I am talking about a single man who will overtly flirt with me and who definitely openly shows interest, yet fails miserably to pick up on my cues. I have asked my platonic male American friends and most of them will confess a sheer terror of being turned down! They all have stories of "that cute girl who got away!"
I mean how hard can that be!? If a woman flirts back and doesn't give you "don't even try it Buster!" body language (frowning, turning body away from you, crossing arms upon chest etc...) but gives you all the green lights (flirty smile, lingering look, asks you what you're doing this weekend) how hard really can it be to say "I enjoy talking with you. Would you like to go on a date with me?" LOL!
OH! And I have a male friend who tells me that men will never use the term "date". Hence I've found myself out with a guy on many an occasion, me thinking it's a "hanging out with a male buddy" type of deal and him thinking he's on date! LOL!
You Cowboys are so intoxicatingly attractive (it's more than your sexy accent) but to quote Cindy Crawford in 3rd Rock from the Sun: "why do the cute ones always have to be soo dumb!?" LOL! ;o)
Furthermore men will tell me that they love it when women ask them out. My studies of psychology tell me that a guy will always resent the woman for this (even if subconsciously) and this could not possibly lead to a meaningful LTR (long term rel.) because mostly the guy will exhibit passive- aggressive tendencies without knowing why, but psychology explains this as having sthg. to do with him feeling emasculated.
Having said this, I know there are exceptions and I'm not asking anyone for a dissertation on the validity of psychology. Just be upfront and tell me what you consciously prefer: being asked out or making the first move. For the ladies: have you seen a behavioral difference in your men whenever you were the one to make the first move? And do you prefer he makes the first move or doesn't matter?
For both the feminists and the flamers out there: I know it's 2005: I'm gathering info here and I'd like to hear it from the boys!
So Alexxia are your parents arranging the marriage yet??? Just teasing ya girl, but that is an amusing story. Never underestimate the size of some mens egos. They sure don't. Seems sometimes egos and lies go hand in hand too. I had a buddy that I partied with in my 20's. He would walk up to women in bars and introduce himeself as "Hey! I'm Steve. I'm a doctor"... LOL
Albeit I risk my angelic reputation, I will share a story. :o) Your inner light shines through where ever you are!!! I am a man, and I enjoy the female form. I have been known from time to time to visit places known for their Adult Entertainment, which there are several here in Atlanta.
I was sitting there watching the dancers, sipping on a cool drink. I love to people watch, and "strip clubs" are a fun place to do so. Watching the girls work the men, and play their silly egos. I had noticed the "den mother", who is the shift supervisor in charge of the ladies, showing a new girl around the club.
After they finished, the den mother went back to the dressing room. A few minutes later, the "new girl" came up came up and said "You look like the kindest face in here, would you mind if I sit with you and chat?" There were plenty of men sitting around in their fancy suits, throwing lots of money around, and I am sure that line would have worked on any of them.
ROFLMAO... Sure, it may have been just a line from her, or was it the butterfly theory at work? You cannot catch a butterfly, but if you sit quietly, one will come and light softly on your shoulder.
We had an interesting conversation, bought her a drink, and got a dance. Though she had worked at other clubs in ATL, this was her virgin dance at this club! LOL After she finished, she excused herself to "goto work"... And no, I didn't hit on her. I was over that in my 20s...
Perhaps your "clues" are not as obvious as you assume. You are calling out for the men to be more direct, why don't you be more direct yourself?
There are those that say that men don't like aggressive women, to them I say "BS"... There are those that say men think that women that take the initiative are easy, to them I say "BS"...
On the comments about the intimidation factor of beautiful women, Damn Straight... Do you think that females have a monopoly on insecurity? Most times we think, "what would a great looking woman like that want with a fool like me"... Albeit, sometimes we will down another shot, and wander over to get that rejection. LOL
Some men (like some women) are looking for sex, some are looking for relationships. It is up to the individuals to learn to distinguish the difference and act accordingly.
Don't play games, seek the truth and you will find it. Or if you are just playing games, then enjoy it while they last...
I was very shy in High School and dreaded it when I was turned down and stopped asking. After High School I came to the conclusion that I am only turning myself down, by not asking. Since then I have no problem at all asking a lady out. If she says no thank you , it is her that has lost not me. I have asked and gone out with many beautiful women, both inside and out and it was soooooo hard to believe how little they dated. I guess a man sees a beautiful woman and just figures she has many boyfriends and will not date him.
I'm glad, that leaves me many beautiful woman to date. Wake up boys, girls like to have fun.
Well, Personally, im old fashioned in the sense that i want the guy to make the first move....Id hate to think that my soulmate, wherever he is, is too shy to come up to the Love of his Life First..hehe.....that means we both lose....Hint: Persistance is a plus!!!!....Guys love to chase as much as women love to be chased....Nothing in Life worth having comes easy....with Money OR Love!!!
Just remember guys.....Most of us women Love sexx as much as you do...maybe even more...but the difference is....we like alot of sexxx with ONE man...not several....
After reading many of the responses, it is pretty clear that many men do not make the first move simply because of the fear of rejection. The mind is a pretty powerful thing that can affect men's behavior. I do generally make the fist move pretty much regardless of where I am. The grocery store, the YMCA, bars, coffeeshops, etc. But I don't do it in such a way that will lead a woman to think I'm a perv or some maniac. Fellows, I've found that the best thing to do is simply to become a social person with all women (and people) regardless if you're attracted to them (her) or not. Just talk and try to find some point of interest. 9 out of 10 women will talk to you if you don't make an ass out of yourself initially. "Trying" to be funny or "trying" to show her you're attracted to her is generally the beginning of the end. You'll stumble simply because you're not being who you truly are. Pretend like everyone is a friend and I guarantee that you conversations will be more lucid, more meaningful and more enjoyable. The attraction will either occur or it won't. And if it doesn't, then where was the harm? A friendship has been born or a good conversation had. And if a woman still won't talk to you, then she's cold and probably has very few dates. And women, when a guy does comes up to you to chat simply be friendly. Thinking, "oh, what's this bozo talking to me for" simply shows who you are. Don't assume that every guy who talks to you is trying to pick you up. Just see it as it is. A person talking to you.
And fellows, once you do ask her out and if she says no, what's the big deal? Jesus, she's just somone who wasn't interested. Remember, we too have the ability to turn down women.
Condition your confidence. By just being who you are and talking friendly to a woman (meaning showing subtle interest by not showing direct interest) is usally the best approach at least for me.
Hang in there fellows. And to you women who think you can't come up and talk to a man. That's just plain silly. You may be letting one slip away because you, in fact have a fear of rejection.
Don't think it has anything to do with them being lazy. It's that now we live in a time where women are no longer afraid of taking the first step to meeting a man. And they know it. Not to mention we also live in a time where most women have taken self defence classes and can clobber the unwanted advancer. lol I also think womens radar is more fine tuned than mens. A woman can spot another woman on the make a mile away. Was out with a freind one night and this girl was so totally sending out the signals to him. He didn't even notice. Was a little ticked at me for not mentioning it then but was surprised. And I can't speak for anywhere else but here in Winnipeg men do ask the women to dance, and a stranger will open and hold a door open for you when you enter a building. And there lots of good decent men out there. You just have to be patient and before you know it the will be right in front of you.
EuroCharm.... I totally agree with what you just said.
Also I am from So Cal, and it is exactly like that there. And now I am in Missery, I mean Missouri LOL. And its like that here too. And come to think of it, at this siminar once, the only guy that came on to me and was brave about it, was this European guy lol.
To bad I didnt meet any other European men when I was going out to the other places.
The following is an except from an article on my site:
...Here?s the bottom line. If you want a man, he has shown interest, but he has not taken the effort to get with you, probably because of distance, you?re going to have to make the effort yourself, have sex with him, not make the entire get together contingent on intentions being to find your life mate and certainly not tell him if he?s interested in just sex to look else where. If you don?t like those terms, then don?t. And you are right where you are now because that?s your preference over the alternative. What you have done is eliminated the men with enough integrity to not fabricate their intentions while opening the door to the players who are desperate enough or slick enough to frame it any way you want to hear it, as long as they get with you.
Don?t you know that every first date, sex or not, to a man it?s a one night stand until he has information to lead him otherwise. If it?s good, there will be more, if it?s not, there will not be more. This is how many men end up finding their life mate. They are not going to declare that they are working towards something until they have experienced you enough, and I mean in person, that they really are working towards something. For most men, it starts with the draw for sex. Not the intention to get laid, but sex appeal and eventual sex. Isn?t that the difference between a plutonic and romantic meeting?
Ah, but women get all bent out of shape about that sexual intention. Get over it and deal with it, or continue as you are. It?s a choice. All the wishing in the world is not going to change it. What really burns me is the number of women that have a male friend that tells them otherwise. THEY ARE LYING. I don?t care how nice the man is, how much you trust him, if he is not sleeping with you, he wants to and is not about to destroy his fa?ade of being different.
Worse, are the men that come on here and declare me wrong, that not all men or most men are like that, that they for one think like a woman wishes they thought. That there is the ULITIMATE bull shitter. Make no mistake. And deep down, you KNOW that. Yet some of you have the audacity to praise him publicly and just entice more to do the same, thinking that laying out the fa?ade publicly has dramatically increased his chances (of getting a woman).
I shudder to think that some of the woman actually DO buy it, and with these woman, especially the older woman who honestly believe there are plenty of man who naturally ARE this way, are more likely to go out with the man as a result. May they then find out the hard way, that?s life.
Every woman has a story about the men they know that are not like that. Not to your faces they are not like that. I know more men then you will ever know and they don?t have any motivation whatsoever to put on the fa?ade when the ladies are not around. I don?t know ANY that talk the way the women say they are when the women are not around. I was one of them, I know. Dare you say that these men are putting on the fa?ade for the males and they way they are with the ladies around is the real person. LOL! Think of that situation in the reverse and then tell me that.
What we have then is the ongoing battle of the sexes. Men want sex. Women want a partner. Emphasize your position and piss the other off. The men that tailor and get the women are called players, the women that do the same are called bitches because they don?t put out and change completely after they have him in their pockets. Those that refuse to compromise, well those are the men that have few options, those are the woman left wondering why.
Just to not leave things so grim, all this trouble is a matter of frame of reference. Men want sex. That doesn?t mean they want to penetrate you or all bets are off. But they need to know that?s where things are leading. When I say sex, what I really mean is the conditions that lead to sex, including being close, touching, intimacy, the works. That, plus getting naked and sex IS what they are after and maybe even more, a permanent supply of the same. That is known as a life-partner or wife. What, do women believe men are not motivated by the permanent steady supply of sexual or romantic contact as the primary motivation for getting with her in marriage?
Just like the women, show also put out a misconception. They want a life partner. They don?t expect any sort of commitment from the start. But they do need to know that?s where things are leading or that it is a least, a possibility.
Both are part right, part wrong, and delivering a message that both conveys what you want while spooking the other into thinking of it incorrectly. Just sex or I want to get married. Deal with it as you see fit. End of story.
This was an excerpt from an article on my site. If you wish to read the full article, use my name BFDeal in any search engine, you will find me and will see the link along the side.
Well, I think you can all predict what I am going to say.
It seems to be a common phenomenon - not enough men are making the first move. Why = laziness. Everyone deals with fear of rejection in different areas of their lives so I am not even going to address that kind of BS excuse.
My girlfriends and I go out occasionally to our local hot spots. The men stay on one side of the place while the women congregate on the other side. The men are staring at the women and talking about all the T&A among their friends. The women are scoping out the men and talking among themselves about why no one is coming up to them and then end up ignoring them all and having fun among themselves. The men get drunker and after several hours, no one comes up to talk. (Well, a rare few do - usually Europeans! and it is appreciated when it happens) I have also experienced this in NYC and other cities, so I know it is a North American thing rather than local.
So, we have it across the states and in Vancouver. What is going on, guys?
I can tell you this - I find it completely uninspiring and unromantic to have to go up to a guy who doesn't have the BALLS to come up and introduce himself to me as a human being....
Some things never change, and there is nothing more magical than feminine and masculine energies intermingling - this will not happen in a room full of cowering men and frustrated women.
It is not about games or anything superficial - it is about romance, class, and setting the stage properly. Most of the men on this site want a classy woman who is feminine. A classy woman who is feminine will rarely be the one to go up to the man first.
So, guys - some advice: be one of the 3 or 4 guys who WILL come up to us, and you will be ahead of everyone else in the room.
So QT,when a guy is receiving both favorable eye contact and body language ques,he should ask around to be sure she is not already "taken"? I ask because I often find myself in the position of being informed of such. And trust me I know the difference between favorable ques and nuetral ones. Consider this too,the woman I married was a co-worker. She was "involved" too,despite this every one of the 2 dozen or so guys who worked there gave her a shot. I didn't,and not because I wasn't attracted,and not because she was "taken",and not because I hadn't noticed any interest. I just knew I'd see her the next day...
Just read a great book. "He's just not into you" it adresses this situation exactly along with some other great situations. Final answer, women don't ask a man out.. Men like the hunt.
Remember in all things.. If there is a will.. there is a way.
I have received several compliments from the men on this site and that's about it. That's usually as far as it goes. Even when I am out with my friends, I get the same thing. I am baffled by this whole thing.
EQT- female version of my personal perspective. When i was in my 30's i found it ok to ask men out as they were of the same mind set and it was the 90's. I dated some for quite awhile but it was always those "cowboy"(I lived in cowboy country) and they don't have the best of manners. Now there are always the exception to the rule. There are real cowboys(wonderful people) and store bought cowboys.(Playing at it and cocky to boot. (now we all know in each category they can be both ways so this is just a general picture.
I find men now a days ,after the liberation had wore off of asking them out, that they are more gun shy and very unsmart(i am being nice but is that a word!!!:))) You are right they are VERY afraid of being turned down. I have had many say that very thing. So if you are giving them the signals and they are returning they many times do not ask. But in itself this is a very unsure, maybe insecure man. Oh he might look macho but chances are it's a show. Then you have the ones that think their S*** don't stink and think that they deserve YOU to ask.(Cocky i can do without to an extent)You are questioning their manhood and many fail miserably. So when that happens to me i usually go on and say to myself he doesn't know what he is missing. Or it's his loss. Of course if you are interested in him maybe he is not "that into you"(great book) so that is the case and you just continue on. There are a few other obvious reasons such as shyness that can be excused. But in the end i like a man to ask me out then i know he is really interested and not just giving me lip service or being polite.
It will be interesting to see if any men answer that question and what they think
I firmly believe in letting the guy make the first move. (This in the real world.) The reason is this: most women will not say yes to a guy whom they are not attracted to. But men often do!! It is pretty easy to con a guy into a relationship and I see women doing just that all the time. For me I'd rather be alone than with a guy who didn't ask me out. Whether it is because he didn't want me or was too shy or too chicken to ask me out. Same difference! I need a guy who wants to be with me, not one who would feel cornered into a yes.
There is nothing sexier than being with a man who wants me and who will virtually move mountains to be with me. Who wants a puppet?! If I "fall" for a guy and he doesn?t want me, in the end, it's never gonna work out! So why bother? I'm not into drama or manipulating men. I can lose gracefully to another woman knowing that he was not the one for me and that I've freed up my energy to meet the one who wants me.
I mean, let's face it ladies! You make the first move: ever think how many guys will turn down the possibility of sex? Even if they don't find the girl particularly attractive, they know she's probably 3 beers away from drop dead. And for a guy that hasn't gotten any say for the last 6 weeks or 6 months, the possibility of regular sex is probably more attractive than having to drill a hole in the wall and whip out the vaseline. (I hear most guys will virtually hump anything safe for an electric pencil sharpener...)
For me, I want to be sure that he's into me. Many of my male friends have told me that they said yeah to a woman and then got stuck with her. Before they know it, some wake up married! It?s the classic ?man desperate for sex?/ ?woman desperate for a man? relationship: she waits by the phone, wonders why he doesn't call. He keeps trying to get away. If those two moved in together (or worsed, swapped their I do's) she becomes the nag and in the end probably winds up wondering why he cheats on her!
The way I see it letting a guy make the first move tells me he?s interested. It may not lead anywhere, but it?s the right start. Guys pretty much know that if she says yes she?s into him. But the reverse is absolutely not a given. And if the guy is too shy to ask me out, that?s not attractive to me, so he?s lost me right there because I prefer my men with a little more oomph than a mollusk!
A friend of mine told me he was just too scared to ask women out. I told him his assignment for the week was to get turned down by 5 women, LOL! So that every time he heard ?no? he actually won and was closer to the 5th rejection. Totally turned around his attitude and he asked me out right then and there and got his first no, LOL! (I don?t date my male friends and they know it!)
Anyway, since I come from Europe, I was used to men not being phased by a no. They know to just move on. I think that too much emphasis is placed on the no in the US. If men try to second guess why they?re not ?good enough? for her, trouble starts inside that male ego!. If the guy can realize that you can?t fake chemistry then he can accept it and move on to the next lady he finds attractive. I seriously doubt that if I turned down Colin Farrell he?d second guess himself. With a solid self-image and self-esteem, all this can be viewed just as what it is: lack of chemistry or compatibility.
I do realize that on occasion relationships work when the guy made the first move but for me I just don?t want to ever have to second guess that.
And now for the really funny part: I was just asked on date out as I?m typing this! ROTF LOL! The guy sent his buddy! My answer? I appreciate it but no thanks!
Hi there,well from My point of view, you are right men do get tired of asking and getting the cold shouders all the time, that we are not good looking enough or drive the wrong car,or wear the wrong cloth,seems always some dum reason. Funny enough the women that get to know us as friend realize that we are actually pretty good guys, and they also don't understand why these women act like that. Ever since I have been in the USA I have not yet found a lady that can be real , and just be herself, instead they must act like someone they are not, mostly princesses. My other view on this is , I think women are tired of saying no to all those men, because they are not finding the one they want, so meaby they should take matters into their own hands and ask, trust me after asking a few times and getting the cold shoulders than meaby they will understand how we feel about it.
am I the first to reply to this? I'm still learning my way around this place.
First moves, eh? I remember always being the wallflower at all the school dances I attended. One year, I went to a dance and it was the last one I would be at in that particular school, as we were going to move away a week later. A boy that I had sat behind for an entire year asked me to dance...as we swayed slowly to the music he whispered in my ear, "I liked you all of last year..." and all I could think was, 'why didn't he ever say anthing before NOW???'
Over the years, I frequently received "Secret admirer notes" but never had dates, never had boyfriends...*sigh* I dunno....