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sepelo7
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Posted on Wed, Mar 14, 2007 05:37

So I just finished reading love2banters new blog about dormavirgo and it got me thinking. Many of you know I am not religious based upon the heated debates between between TP, the angel chick, and myself before the NCO time. I do not believe in prayer. I do not believe in a god. Have I uttered a quick "wish" or "thought" during a moment of total loss? Absolutely, and at those times I wish there was a god who could hear me. So my question is . . .what makes you people believe that praying for someone will help them? And how do you know what you're praying for. Now I know nothing about dormavirgo, I only know she has been struggling to get her child back from her ex. This is blogland, we know nothing of the quality of person she is. Forgive me dorma, but I don't know if you DESERVE to have your son. Everyone merely takes your side because they "know" you. I am not speaking badly of you here just stating the truth. So now all these people will pray and this god will answer the prayer? What if all these people are praying for the wrong thing? What if I request people pray that my father will drop dead? The whole concept of prayer does not work for me, especially in this situation, because you do not know for what you pray!


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TurningPoint
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Posted on Sun, Mar 25, 2007 20:15

Hey Sep.... nice to see you haven't forgotten me! I have been gone for a couple months. I just read this blog and laughed out loud. I see I have not lost my reputation. ;-) All I can say in answer to your question is that the bible teaches us to pray and ask for what we want. If it is good and right we are to ask God for it... "if it is His will". What we ask for is not always His will. And some times He answers our prayers in ways we didn't expect...yet it is an answer none the less. And I might add that He has our best interest at heart. What we want is not always what we need. We are all born with a knowledge of God. That is why when you get in real trouble or are in a crisis, you inevidably cry out to God for help. He is there Sep. I hope some day you will turn to Him and open your heart. I know.... Yada yada yada! I'll be quiet now. lol! TP P.S...At least I didn't quote any Bible verses! lol


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Posted on Sun, Mar 25, 2007 18:32

Sep, you pray for what is in your heart..what you want or need. My belief is strongly rooted in God. You may find yourself praying to the Universe or another god, for the desires of your heart. Ultimately, your Higher Power, will only give you what you need. Like children we may deserve a reward or punishment so that we may learn a lesson. Their is a song by Garth Brooks about unanswered prayers, it sounds corny, but is so true. Sep, why not give a prayer to YOUR Higher Power a chance, what would it hurt? Stanger things have happened! I'm struggling myself. I have never believed in tithing. Someone asked my why not give $100 dollars and just see..think of the junk and stupid stuff you would've spent the money on anyway. Just try it..if you don't feel it works...don't ever do it again. so I did. I gave $100 to the church. I had just lost my job and was facing a $3500 AMEX bill from my old employer. The very next day I called the collection company, and the bill had been paid in full. I will be making another tithe for $100 to show my God that I believe and trust him. I will pray that he be with me during my job interview, and ask that his will be done. Sep, please just try some kind of prayer. J.


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sepelo7
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Posted on Sun, Mar 25, 2007 13:57

good point trish :D


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NOLAsaint
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Posted on Sun, Mar 25, 2007 13:20

my mother is not religious either, and her questions about prayer just kind of made me think too. don't know where i am religiously right now...i thought i believed in god...now i am not so sure. her point was...in high school they would lead us in prayer at football games praying for the safety of the team members. just safety, not winning or whatever. question: are the players going to be safe only because we prayed for them to be? what if we hadn't prayed and someone broke his leg? would the injury have been prevented had we prayed for safety? what kind of god would do that? if you don't pray then you may get injured but since you have some diving intervention will save your leg. forget the praying for really bad things or really great things...i'm still stuck on this one. sorry i know this is your question but if i may add to it and if anyone has any insight?


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sepelo7
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Posted on Fri, Mar 16, 2007 16:27

Jody. . .sheesh look at the cup half full . . .over halfway to death! lol Rob/Linda I disagree. I have CLEARLY thought out my reasons for not believing in god. Trust me. I just don't care to detail it to a bunch of strangers. Frankly, it's unimportant. But I have clear reasons for it... reasons I believe make it obvious that there is no god. Just as you have clear reasons to believe there is one.


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Vanja77
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Posted on Fri, Mar 16, 2007 08:09

I wish i could pray, i'm not brought up in any religion, more spiritual. But i see a lot of people get a lot of strength out of prayer, and hope.. those 2 things i could do with very much now. sometimes i envy people who get so much out of their faith emotionally and i wish there was a way to find my way to prayer and believing in God.


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Posted on Thu, Mar 15, 2007 20:21

Thanks Sep. You don't know me, so thinking I'm not a pain in your behind is premature! And, I'm on heavy Vicodin all the time... Jesus prescribed, God tested! hee hee Hey, it's cool. We all are at different places in our faith and choices. I've been back and forth, up and down many times. I've found the balance in my life that works for me. I know that at some point, with your soft and tender heart...you will too. My gutt feeling is that you just had so much shoved down your throat that you had no room to decide really for yourself. I know I'd say...no freakin' way Jose if that was me at a point in time. I don't like ANYTHING being shoved down my throat until I'm ready to receive it. (Yes...that too...Keep it clean smut freaks!) But, my encouragement to you also, is perhaps let the organized stuff go by the wayside and keep a small spot open in your heart for the possibility of revisiting again someday. Closing off your heart and mind completely to anything ain't so good either. Makes us so black and white that we don't see color at all! I think I'd enjoy knowing you Sep...just don't me too many names and we'll be fine. (I was a biker chick once you know...It's not like I grew up in a convent! Come to think of it...that's about the only thing I didn't try in my 20's!)


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sepelo7
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Posted on Thu, Mar 15, 2007 10:12

Debbie I'll take the vicodin too as of late! But seriously you have a very good way of expressing your beliefs w/o being a pain in the ass. Haha. So we agree that it works for you and not for me. Oddly my decision to not include god in my life was what made my life settle down and make more sense. It grounded me. Made me happier. just like finding god was your solution, letting that part of my life go was what has made me happy and secure in my life.


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Posted on Thu, Mar 15, 2007 07:54

Ahh Sep! I get ya girl. I thought the same thing too at different parts of my life. I always searched for things that made sense. ALWAYS. That's why I tell you this in total sincerity. I found that faith isn't a crutch. It's the whole hospital! If you use it when just one part of you is broken, it may work for a time. But having faith and believing is coming to the place in your life when you realize that being good or moral is really never good enough. Afterall, who's the holder of the stick of where the 'good enough' line is to call ourselves moral or good, really? Now, we may say..."Well, it is for me. I like my life. I'm OK with my choices, decisions, etc." I did! And that is our right to have that free will to choose. This is about choices. But, again...being the one who needs to typically know my options...I usally end my thoughts with the old "What if??" What if it is true that there isn't a God? Then I can live and do as I please. No harm, no fowl. I die and there are not consequences or benefits. I make my own destiny. BUT, just what if there is a loving God who made me and all this stuff is true? Well, then there are benefits and consequencses perhaps then too. This is such a personal thing. And even though you were raised to understand or live around folks that read and prayed and said the words, not a one of them makes them yours. YOU have to be the one to decide yourself. For me. I came to a place in my life around 25 where nothing else was working to make sense out of the chaos, and I gave 'er a whirl. I listened, looked, and read on my own. I resisted the mainstream thought either way. I sought all the beliefs and tried them all on. Even non-belief. Over time, I felt comfort, peace and yes...even found sense in a nonsensical world through my faith. I can't say I subscribe to a particular denomination. Though I have come to believe and rest my faith in the Bible after this search not from logic mind you, but from a place in my heart. I simply asked God to show me that he's real...and he did...over and over and over again. Why so many times? Because I needed to see that He was real. I lacked faith. This whole act of prayer is simply talking to God. Connecting to him. Can we change his mind? Maybe, maybe not. I can't say for sure accurately. Some have said in points of history, they feel God's mind has been changed. I don't know if I latch on this this completely. But, the course of our actions certainly can change things and there are reprocussions sometimes. I have seen and been a part of miracles as a result of prayer. It's something so big that there isn't an explanation to. I have seen tragedy that is so big there isn't an explanation to either. When I wrestle with how can both happen with no real answers it becomes frustrating unless you are open to the answer being...YOU cannot begin to know the mind of God. WE do not know all of the whys of things happening. I accepted this that I don't get to know all the answers at this point. I do believe there will come a time when all of it will be clear and revealed. But right now, I don't get to know them as I like to know as I mentioned. Still sometimes frustrating, but I accept it. Again, this is a journey we walk alone. Finding the answers and having faith enough to pray, seek and find is one we cannot inherit. It's one we have to adopt on our own to be real. And if it's the band-aid or crutch girl, that's OK. I'll take it, and the Vicodin and the Morphine, and the sutchers, and doctors and the nurses and surgical teams and the rest that the whole hospital provides! Prayer is simply the act of communicating to the Chief of Staff if you'll excuse the analogy.


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sepelo7
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Posted on Thu, Mar 15, 2007 05:13

Love2Banter-I would not retract my comments because I am not friends with either you or Dorma. I like both of you. But I don't consider either of your words to be the truth. I have always assumed that Dorma deserved to have her son, because as a human being, it's just yournatural inclination to side with the mother. But nothing wrong with me stating that I know nothing about the situation and therefore how do I know she deserves to have her child. Nothing to retract. And regarding judging. . .that is precisely what I am NOT doing. Not sure where you got that idea from. And PS there is nothing for me to work through! Sizzlinhot. . . I 100% agree with you. All of you who believe I will learn or I have to find god. . . no thanks, not the case. I made the decision to walk away from that kind of a belief. So I HAVE found what I believe in and that is MYSELF.


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sizzlinhot
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Posted on Thu, Mar 15, 2007 01:18

Hi Sep, When my husband died at the age of 26 I thought what kind of God takes away a father from his 4 children? How dare "God" rob me of my happily ever after. My husband was a hard working, good man. He supported his family, and loved us. What did we do to deserve losing him? People would say to me "we're praying for you and the children", or "your husband is in a better place". Those were empty statements to me. The loss was so tremendous that sympathizing words seemed empty. I didnt want to hear that everything was going to be ok when everything seemed so uncertain. I remember praying to God for help, and answers. Whether or not he answered me was open for debate. I began looking inside myself for the answers. That was my turning point. I think that if people find comfort and peace in praying to "God" than thats just fine. I think we all try to find a way through difficult times. Some people find strength through their faith in God and prayer. So be it.


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angelface10
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Posted on Thu, Mar 15, 2007 00:59

Hey Sepelo, I know how you feel ... How can I know ? I was forcefed Christianity, no Catholicism, since I was old enough to be taught the sign of the cross... While these people in our life meant well, it just brought up questions, they couldn't answer. As a kid, I overthought everything, and I remember asking my Dad, why Jesus wasn't in my Science book. I was a tough kid to raise and a milk warm believer, for a very long time... Priests left the ministry to get married , or worse... and nobody could answer my questions. It wasn't until years later, when I first got to really know God on a more personal level, that my beliefs changed.... I had just gotten divorced, and while I knew it was the right thing to do, I felt very alone, for really the first time... My girlfriends were gone, I had the huge responsibility of my children, and I felt very alone... It was the TV ministries, Charles Stanley, Oral Roberts, even Swaggert, that we now know was less than perfect, all helped me in their own way. Today, Charles Stanley, Joel Osteen, just put on Channel 40, or the religious channel, and listen with an open mind, and an open heart, and judge for yourself. You can tell the real men of God, from the rest, and that's a first start. I had 10 years of religion class, and I'm closer to God, now, than ever before. He has sure tested me, and you have to put your trust in him, to guide your life, and when you do... knowing that the bottom is about to drop out of your life, and you say... Ok, do what you will, with it, I put my trust in YOU.. only then, will he make your dreams come true... That has been my experience... But, since this is our testing ground, I think ! How we handle difficulties, is also how we will be judged. That is why bad things happen to good people... We are here for just an instant, compared to eternity, and he will never give us more, than we can bear... Just like when people get severely hurt in an accident, and they feel nothing... My husband, a police officer, said one day, he walked up to an accident, and the guys whole face was torn off, and he was asking if he thought he was hurt bad... Many miracles, have happened for me, only since I have come to know him personally. There is a sense of well being despite all odds, when the Holy Spirit is in your heart. You don't necessarily find him in church, maybe, maybe not... but when you get tired of struggling, just tell him, OK, you'll try it HIS way, and I promise you... you will never want to go back... Just remember, he will always be there waiting for you, whatever you've done, to welcome you home, that is the true unconditional love of " OUR FATHER "... : )


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1RareFind
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Posted on Wed, Mar 14, 2007 22:49

Sepelo7, (sorry, I can't remember your whole name, it's late!) I believe that praying for others helps, because I feel good about being able to do Something in situations over which I have no control, and because when someone tells me they are keeping me in their prayers, I feel supported and nurtured and loved. So my experience forms the basis of my beliefs. Whether any specific Other thing happens as a result of prayer, is a question well beyond me. I'm very cautious about praying for specifics, for the exact reasons you mention. And because I've had some now-funny experiences with getting "exactly" what I prayed for. My experience is that shared joy is double joy, and shared pain is half pain, as the saying goes. Prayer seems a universal way of sharing. A great, easy read that addressed many of these questions for me: Harold Kushner's When Bad Things Happen to Good People.


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sepelo7
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Posted on Wed, Mar 14, 2007 22:07

No it doesn't make sense Deb. I was brought up christian. My father was a pastor, my brother a pastor, my sister a missionary, my brother in law a pastor. Trust me I know all about prayer. And I strongly disagree with the perceived outcome of prayer. Prayer saves one but doesn't save the other. God allows the rapist, murderer, child molestor to live yet takes away the pastor, the loving wife and mother, the 50 yr old man with a wife and kids to support that now have no money without him. I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. I spent 17 yrs of my life learning all about it. And I still fail to see that there is any god at all. Prayer, god, church. . . it is all just a crutch. And nothing wrong with a crutch if it helps you behave in a morally correct manner. I don't have a crutch. I choose to live my life and not rely on anyone or anything for support. But that is just me. . .Maybe I'm stronger than other people.


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Posted on Wed, Mar 14, 2007 21:54

Ok...here's my take on prayer. You've known that I am a Christian; therefore, I do believe in God. I believe and have faith in God as a creator of each of us that knows our thoughts, our needs, hurts, wants, desires, etc. So, though I don't know Dorma's situation, it doesn't matter. I pray and ask God to bring her peace in whatever she is going through. To bring her faith if she lacks it. To give her strength to fight the battles if they are raging. To bring her a friend to help her through them. To love her and give her a miracle sign that He is there with her whether she believes in Him or not. Because I do believe in a God that made man and the universe, and I do believe (though can't explain it all) that he has a plan for each of us and as he promises to be there for us when we call out to him, then I lean on that as my basis for prayer. All the 'what if' questions in the world can't convince me He's not real when there have been too many times I've cried out to God myself to show himself to me and he has. Now, do bad things happen to good people? Sure. Why? Don't know. How to I rationalize and justify it? I can't really. I'm logical in nature and that doesn't make sense. No real concrete answers. But, the Bible says faith is the confident assurance that what we hope for is up ahead though we cannot see it. Now, if I hope for a million dollars am I gonna get it? Depends on so many things I suppose. But for me...the answer is... if He wants me to have THAT thing, and it's what's best for me...then I will. I try not to pray for silly things like money or things...or contrived endings I want to see happen, but more for God's will. If I believe He made me and knows what's best for me...then I lean on that line of prayer to guide me in my prayer life. "Lord, your will be done. Just show me the way." Does that make any sense Sep?


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MountainWinds
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Posted on Wed, Mar 14, 2007 21:41

Robnlinda is right on with what I wanted to say. Every thought we have is energy. Every single thought. That energy is transmitted out into the world and manifests itself. Sometimes we notice it and sometimes we don't, but it's there. Think you're going to have a crappy day? Yes, then you will and so on. Prayer is just another word for an extremely concentrated flow of positive energy directed towards someone...it's the power of positive thinking magnified, especially when two or more people are sending out (praying) as well. without getting metaphysical/spiritual/new age/theological on ya, this is as simple as I can make it.


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